COPE - A definitive answer please

[wombat7862]

Hi,

I am still struggling to get my head around the whole COPE thing and the more I read the more confused I get.

Can someone who actually is in receipt of their State Pension answer this please:

I joined the FFPS in 1981 and retired in 2012 and so far I have 36 years of Full NI Contributions and am thinking of making up some more with Voluntary Contributions before I reach State Pension age in 2029 (assuming they don't move it again before then).

According to my State Pension Summary online it says that based upon my NI record up to 5 April 2021 my State Pension would be £149.92 a week and the most I could get is £179.60 (which implies purchasing additional years). That's all understandable.

It also states I have been in a contracted out pension scheme and that my Contracted Out Pension Equivalent (COPE) estimate is £89.32 a week.

It then goes on to say that "this will not affect your State Pension forecast. The COPE amount is paid as part of your other pension schemes, not by the government."

So am I right in thinking that based upon my current contributions my actual State Pension will be £149.92 - £89.32 = £60.60 a week? or are the COPE figures just their to confuse as they would have been part of the Additional State Pension, i.e. SERPS which would have been above the Standard State Pension?

If someone who is currently receiving their Brigade pension and State Pension could possibly answer I would be grateful.

If you could please say how many years NI contributions you had made and how your State Pension differs from the theoretical maximum you could get, i.e. is the COPE amount actually deducted from the State Pension because I definitely don't think the FFPS will make up the difference and start paying me the £89.32 a week when I start claiming the State Pension, I expect that we all have been shafted by this but to what degree.

Many thanks in advance.

[Nightstaffer]

Hi ,
I retired in 2005
I have just looked at my pension settlement.
There is no mention of anything to do with COPE

however there is a section entitled
REDUCTION ON AND FROM 65th BIRTHDAY N.I. MODIFICATION

And it mentions the date I joined until 31/3/1980
And that equates to 4 years and a few days x £1.70 = £8
So on my 65th Birthday my pension dropped by £8 a year


But you joined after this date do that will have changed

other than that no mention of COPE or any other adjustment to the straightforward calculation
Gross Pay
Gross pension 40/60ths
Commutation
Final pension

When I did receive my state pension calculation it was a bit more complicated
I got a pension of around £600 - £630 which fits your figure of £149 a week .

However it is made up of several elements.
Way back in the seventies there was “ graduated pension” where you paid more in based on your earnings.
Which I did before joining the FS

so if I recall correctly there was a small enhancement to my state pension due to graduates earnings.

then there was SERPS - again an element based on earnings
But you contracted out of that if you were in a pension so when I got my pension again if I recall correctly there was a reduction because of being contracted out

so it was the flat rate pension
Plus a little bit ( graduated earnings)
LESS bit for being contracted out throughout my 30 years)

and that came out around £145 a week .

I will try and find my state pension letter but in the meantime I hope that helps until someone with more knowledge arrives.

As an aside since 2004 my pension has gone up

[Nightstaffer]

Continued

I think you are right in that the COPE element will be a reduction on the calculation of your State Pension as it showed up as a reduction on my letter of calculation and as far as I recall my FS pension didn’t increase to make that up.

As an aside
Firefighters pensions have increased by around 50% since 2004 and its a crime and a shame that firefighters wages have fell away so much .

[Nightstaffer]

Ahem!
I may have mislead you
A quick glance indicates things changed after 2016 and your employer has to include an element , COPE, and equivalent amount into your employers pension - guaranteed minimum pension GMP

Apologies for that

[bill.advanced]

Ns, wombats concern was that the COPE amount would be removed from his estimate. IE £149.92 pw less COPE £89.32 pw leaving him with a state pension of only £60.60pw.
I do apologise Ns I should have posted my reply, but as this has already been covered I Pmd wombat yesterday to inform him the the cope figure does not reduce his state pension. In effect he can ignore the cope figure, it amounts to nothing more than an extraneous paper exercise, and leads to confusion. But to be fair to the government they have now included this sentence in their correspondence.

"this will not affect your State Pension forecast. The COPE amount is paid as part of your other pension schemes, not by the government."

Prior to this this was not mentioned, leading to alarm and confusion.

You also mentioned 2016, this was the year that contracted out pensions were abolished.

Wombats current estimate of £149.92 will be the amount paid to him when he reaches state pension age. This figure being based on current payments, and subject to percentage increases between now and when he receives his state pension.
Again I apologise for sending the pm and not posting ns.

[Stressed]

I assume that even though we had no choice about being contracted out which basically saved the employers money and reduced our state pension the has been no action by any union to challenge the fact that we have lost out through no fault of our own!

[notnarcissus]

COPE ended for anyone drawing their flat rate state pension after a particular date in 2016 (perhaps April). I was informed of this directly by the former Pensions Minister in the coalition Government, Steve Webb (Lib Dem). He's also a current pensions expert, Google him.

As long as you're fully paid up, you should get the full state pension.

[wombat7862]

Thank you everyone for the help you have given me getting to grips with the State Pension and COPE.

I have found out something additional which whilst not necessarily appertains to COPE it may be beneficial, if you're thinking of making additional NI contributions.

I retired in 2012 and at that point had 35 years Full NI contributions, however my State Pension forecast was less than the maximum due to our Contracted Out Rate.

Since 2019-20 tax year, I had through other employment started making Full NI contributions, 2019-2020 wasn't a full year but 2020-2021 was and so will the next tax year.

In order to boost my State Pension from the current forecast to the maximum I have decided to start making Voluntary Class 3 NI Contributions, if you look at your NI record online it will show any missing years where you can make additional contributions. In my particular case I just wanted to make a one off payment to make my 2019-20 year a full year and that would cost me £330. Other years were showing up at £800.80 per year.

When you contact HMRC (0300 200 3500) and make your way through the automated phone system one of the questions it asks is if you have contacted the "Future Pension Centre Centre" (0800 731 0181), whilst it would be easy to say Yes, because you have already looked at your NI record online, do not do so, instead say No and it will tell you to contact the Future Pension Centre.

On contacting the Future Pension Centre and them checking my record there were 3 years of NI Voluntary contributions I could have made that would have had no beneficial affect on my future State Pension, I could have quite easily paid £2,402.40 for no gain whatsoever, as the New State Pension came into effect on 6 April 2016 and it is those payments beforehand that are used to calculate your starting point for the New State Pension, as I already had 35 years I couldn't boost it any further, so the only years that personally have an effect on my New State Pension are those for the Tax Years 2016-2017 onwards.

It may seem an unnecessary extra phone call to make but it is very worthwhile as they can check your NI record and give you an instant pension forecast and tell you what years will boost your pension. The online site only tells you what your current forecast is based upon current payments and what the maximum could be.

For making this Voluntary Class 3 NI payment, your back on to HMRC for a long wait before you get through to an advisor who will then give you all the details you require to make the additional payment. Most importantly of all is an 18 digit reference number that is meant to ensure the payment you are about to make is credited to the correct tax year.

Now for an up to a 6 week wait to ensure the money has been credited correctly.

Hope the above helps someone else, and once again many thanks for all those who have helped me with this.

[Handy Andy]

Hi Wombat,

I retired in 2014. My state pension forecast (due in 2030) was similar to yours.

If you are working - having left the service, your current employment will continue to (through NI contributions) add full additional years to that state pension forecast, before you hit your state pension age.

The cheapest & most effective way to get extra years (before you hit state pension age) is to be self employed & make Class 2 voluntary contributions. There are a rules to who can use this method. I believe you must not be earning more than £9.5K/yr. I think there are certain categories of 'work' which are eligible.

I do property maintenance/handy work, when I can be bothered, from which I earn less than £5k/yr. I pay just under £160/yr in 'voluntary' class 2 NI contributions. This is in stark contrast to the £880/yr to fill in gaps/pay for extra years. Lots of ex FF's have been self employed for years, through their 'fiddle', so will be used to the hassle of filling in the tax return. The best way to set this up is to call HMRC and explain your situation - they couldn't have been more helpful when I called.

The online Government Pension website usually updates your State pension forecast in October the following year (even though you've paid it), so there is a lag.

Finally, I too discovered that buying past years did not actually count (pre 2016)!

Enjoy your retirement.

[ABee]

This COPE and pension stuff is like like trying to understand Cantonese to me

I retired from the LFB in 2009 after 32 years service
I have worked elsewhere for a further 13 years making a grand total of 45 years of NI contributions

I tried to use the Govt Gateway to access my NI records but my past post LFB role means I am unable to access my records online and it all has to be done by email, letters and phone calls (if you can get through!).

Frankly I wasnt that bothered as 45 years of NI payments sure must mean a full state pension when I qualify I 2025

But I was wrong. I received my pension forecast letter today and it shows a weekly pension of £3.51 less than the maximum of £185.15. OK, that's not much but it adds up to £164 a year. The letter doesnt tell me how much in contributions I need to buy to even things up

I havent been able to get through on the phone yet, but does anyone why on earth on earth I could possibly be missing out on the full pension?

If you can help - I would appreciate it if you could use plain English as if you were talking to a child