South Wales Fire Brigade allegation

[noisycat]

I know one of the individuals concerned and only worked with him on a couple of occasions, where he seemed a capable firefighter and watch commander. I became aware of his actions after I left and I was quite shocked that he would do such a thing,on more than once. Let’s not forget, he was actually disciplined and awarded a drop in rank , but what I’d like to know, was did the CFO push for dismissal or was he overruled by the FA ? which they have done a few times in the past. I still don’t understand how, he can be promoted some time later but this is not the first time this happened, there was one officer who failed to attend a fatal house fire, and went on to become an ACO, some middle managers who fiddled their expenses and have gone on to more senior roles. We can all probably quite examples similar to these, some of which may have happened in different times but these were quite recent . When the Police have disciplinary problems, it’s always mentioned about the loss of trust and respect but as that charge is now being directed towards the fire service, that’s a very sad day.

[Benito M]

I was appalled but sadly not surprised by this latest story to make the news. I have spent the last few years working for a private sector employer doing independent investigations in both public and private sector organisations. They also work on cultural change programmes. I have come to the opinion that the cultural change programmes are nice fluffy things to do but do they get to the root of the problem?
I feel now the answer is no.
These people need to be disciplined and if following proper investigation and fair process they need to be dismissed.
The threat of discipline/dismissal might not change what people think but it will make them think twice about taking part or just as bad standing by and watching this type of harassment taking place.
As I have previously said carried out investigations in an NHS provider amongst many other organisations. Met with the trade unions early on, allayed their fears with explaining my background, assured them their members would get an fully independent fair and non bias investigation and subsequent recommendations to the employer.
Locked horns many times with the employer where they tried to influence my terms of reference or how I conducted the investigations because at times these were no more than witch hunts or personal managers vendettas against individuals and that was not happening on my watch.
But the HR skills of understanding the processes, the management skills of how to deal with the hard parts of management has been lost and quite frankly myself and 2 colleagues cleared over several hundred outstanding investigation cases in the space of 14 months, some where individuals had been suspended on fully pay for over 2 years!
Away from the cost no one should be subject to that level of delay and the stress it causes regardless of the investigation outcome, and yes some people are falsely accused:mad:.
Would love to get the call to carry out independent investigations in Westminster and sort that lot out and see proper working practices adopted for employed staff.
Would love to carry out the investigations in fire services and sort them out.
But there would be no hiding place for the perpetrators of these acts, there would be no hiding place for management and HR mistakes or incorrect action and they also would be held to account and there would also be no hiding place for those who the investigation confirms witnessed this going on but did nothing about it.
The trade unions would have nothing to fear because their members would get and independent, fair, un-bias process but they would also have to stop protecting those that don't deserve those protections because by doing so they are not acting in line with the founding principles of why trade unions exists.
The culture would change because I have seen it work.:mad:

[bill.advanced]

I have many concerns over this issue, and other issues which have been reported in the media. Anyone who thought that any fire service anywhere in the U.K. was void of morons or that at any time in the future we will reach a state were no one behaves so badly must surely realise that they have been naive.
The sad fact is look in any large organisation and you will find bullies, racists, and misogynists , and others whose behaviour does not meet the required standards expected of that organisation.

But let’s be clear here we are using information supplied to us by a media which seems hell bent on involving itself with behaviour the fire service, to such an extent that issues which in the past would have not been newsworthy have for some reason become so.

If these individuals have behaved as described they should have been dismissed. To be perfectly frank what appals me more than their crimes, is the lack of punishment befitting those crimes. I am not in anyway shocked that there are a tiny minority within the fire service who behave like this, but I am shocked to find out that when they are put through the relevant discipline procedures that no appropriate punishment is handed down to them.

Finally I don’t look at this in isolation. I see this as part of a movement within the media and the establishment to undermine the credibility of our service. I am getting tired of reading comments about a service I was proud to be a member of for over thirty years. I met and worked with many remarkable people, people I knew I could count on, people I trusted, and admired. These types make up the vast majority of the fire service, and this should never be forgotten. There are racists, misogynists and other types in the fire service, there always have been, and always will be. Let’s deal with them properly, and stop besmirching the reputation of the finest service in the U.K., because of a tiny majority of morons who should not be allowed to tarnish the reputation of the vast majority.

[bill.advanced]

Correction to above should have read “ minority of morons”

[bill.advanced]

I meant to mention it saddens me when we argue amongst ourselves over this matter. We should remember that many decent members whilst appalled at the behaviour of a tiny minority, feel that they are being unjustly tarnished here. I totally understand why Stressed posted the way he did, his post in no way inferred that this behaviour is acceptable, but he like many including myself are fed up with the way we are being vilified due to the actions of a tiny few. He and many like him are not the problem.

[Kerrygold]

Bill, I completely agree with your comment……”but I am shocked to find out that when they are put through the relevant discipline procedures that no appropriate punishment is handed down to them”
I feel that the majority of people would support this view but all too often the “award” appears a bit Micky mouse to say the least.
Behind The Bike Shed or Drill Tower were, for some, very appropriate levellers.

[noisycat]

Apparently the CFO is denying that he knew about the discipline case and the resulting decision. I find it hard it to believe, that he wasn’t aware of the reduction in rank.

[Kerrygold]

Apparently the CFO is denying that he knew about the discipline case and the resulting decision. I find it hard it to believe, that he wasn’t aware of the reduction in rank.

Exactly noisycat, for a person supposedly in charge if a Fire Service I find that unbelievable… if that’s his calibre I wouldn’t even put him in charge of a standpipe :mad::mad::mad:

[Benito M]

[Q

Apparently the CFO is denying that he knew about the discipline case and the resulting decision. I find it hard it to believe, that he wasn’t aware of the reduction in rank.

Just checked out the Grey Book. This would have been a 3rd Stage hearing conducted by an Area/Brigade Manger. If I was the CFO I would want to know which of his managers conducted this and how they came to their decision to demote rather than dismiss?
But lets be honest we all know how the rumour mill of the FS works and the CFO is lying if they are denying knowledge of this.
As long as I can remember the Grey Book procedures were used to batter our decent members and higher up the ranks they didnt seem to apply.
3rd Stage sanctions are clear and if was dismissed the CFO would have had to hear the appeal but because he didn't get dismissed this toad kept his head down and his mates promoted him a year later w*****s:mad:

[bill.advanced]

Apparently the CFO is denying that he knew about the discipline case and the resulting decision. I find it hard it to believe, that he wasn’t aware of the reduction in rank.

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